EI Dialogues with Vinod Karate, TheTeacherApp (S1E5) | Educational Initiatives


My end goal for TeacherApp is not to be
an independent organization with self sustainability and all that. My success
would be if we can create a system where great content for teachers is created
whether it’s created by TeacherApp or whoever it is, because that’s what we are
starting. [Music] Hello, my name is Pranav Kothari, I work
at Educational Initiatives overseeing all the work we do in assessments and
personalized learning for low-income children. I’m so fortunate to have a
conversation with Vinod Karate who is the CEO of TheTeacherApp. You know, I
thought it would be really nice to talk to Vinod because he’s someone who’s
transitioned from the corporate sector, someone who was a VP in banking and
moved to the development sector. He’s been to some of the remotest parts of
India in Pali, in Bihar, and Coimbatore working with the teachers on the ground
there not using any technology and in his new avatar, he’s using technology to
achieve his ambition of touching 1 million teachers with high quality
content. I’m excited about this conversation because you know, I’ve known
Vinod from when he was working in the sector, when he started founding, why he
decided to find his own organization and start something new and I’ve always been
amazed by how many partnerships they’ve been able to strike for the right set of
reasons. Vinod, so excited to have you on this show I’m looking forward to talking
with you today. Oh, it is always great to speak to you.
So tell me about yourselves like where did you grow up and what you did and
why are you in this space and.. I don’t know, I keep telling, a lot of millennials in my team
right, so I keep telling them that the best time to grow up in India was in 90s
not to be born in 90s. So typical story right, we’ve seen India change in that
time when we were all growing up. So Delhi boy, Maliyali, but born and brought up
here I also went to a school which is Kerala school. So it was very close to
the roots that way. So I know how to read and write Malayalam. Learnt in vernacular
so in hindsight I realize what is happening to me in terms of learning in
your mother tongue is now understandable like there’s a science behind it is what
I realize. So learnt in Malayalam till 5th grade and then it was a switch to
English then went to, you know Delhi University broadly. I was very clear I
don’t want to do engineering. That was the big the first pivot and in
hindsight it worked. So I did theatre in DU, learnt also did a very difficult course
called Physics Honors, learned a lot of physics, then that led to a typical thing
that you were confused what do you do, so MBA karna hai (did an MBA). I landed up in Delhi School
of Economics where they were offering an interesting course called Masters in
Human Resource and Organization Development. Somewhere spoke to a lot of
people who said that if you want to really grow fast, be an HR, bohot demand (there’s a lot of demand)
and there are less interesting people there and we also looked at the
landscape. There were only four programs which they were offering at that point
of time and Delhi School of Economics was a good brand to be in and got
through luckily, so that’s where serious work started. So I mean tell me after
college, like you know what did you do, where did you work, and some of that
story. I was very lucky in terms of to start with ICICI Bank, and that was my
first job. Interestingly was given a task of recruiting campus students.
Did that for six months. I still remember Ram, who was heading
the HR there, I saw him in a lecture a guest lecture that he was doing. Very
inspirational in terms of the what ICICI was trying to do at that point
of time. That nobody was teaching banking and banking at that time, this is 2002
2003 almost early growth stage of Indian banking and it’s already happened, the
banking phenomenon had already happened in 2000s but 2002 to 2006 was the rapid
growth that the banking… so it’s still there. One of the biggest challenge was
that nobody was teaching banking and they were all hiring a lot of people.
The prediction at that time was banking industry will hire around 1 lakh
people and if you look at the pipeline yes, finance was taught but banking per
se was not taught. So there was a lot of thinking happening within ICICI Bank
because they were one of the leading in Indian banks to see how do we change
that. So I was part of this startup team within ICICI called Industry Academia
Team where the idea was to see how do we go back and create a pipeline of people
who know banking. So a lot of interesting initiatives there. IFBI was one such initiative, but within
the bank we started working with graduate schools. The idea was to go
there look at their B.Com curriculum and add a six-month elective
in banking because ICICI had created a lot of content for training their own
people which turned into an e-learning piece which turned into like a setup of
a e-learning center in these schools. So we tied up with some hundred colleges in
Rajasthan, Gujarat, Hyderabad, and Orissa. These were the places where ICICI
was going to build up their big setup. T,he idea was go there tie up with these
colleges, train faculties to run an elective in banking which is a blended
program. So six month, with a center set up by ICICI Bank with PC and content. so
that taught you a lot in terms of one, what is the problem and demand-supply.
You saw what is happening in the colleges and then how do you try to
create a solution which is anchored on the demand side but at the same time
delivered on the supply side, it’s very interesting to see how that structure
was. A lot of that has remained in me in terms of when I’m designing a solution
even now, keeping in mind that in terms of what’s that affordable loss for
the college and when you go into the college it’s a no brainer that they want
it. Operationally learned a lot in terms of what works what doesn’t work, some of
it is very very nuanced. So that’s where it started and then did that for two
years, then wanted to make some money, so Lehman Brothers…What’s that? I needed it
at that time. So Lehman Brothers showed up and said, hey we want to set up
India organization, and we want somebody to come and you know set up our India
IIT-IIM program. So they picked me up, and then obviously Lehman went down and
then you were again in a startup mode where Nomura took us over, and then we
were trying to rebuild the brand Nomura on campuses and things. I did that for six
seven years, so that’s been my corporate journey. You talked about the numerous
startup experiences sort of that you did. How is starting TheTeacherApp
different from all your previous experiences? Why did you need to start a
new organization to achieve the goals that you have? Was it not possible to
join an existing organization, so what was the need to start a new organization?
You know, how was it different from starting initiatives
within a company? If you could elaborate on that,
that’d be great. So never thought of it and also from a profiling point of view.
So if you look at the phenomenon in India 2007-08-09 a lot of VC actions
started in India and the profile was, if you are an IIT-IIM, you will get the money and
you just have to show up. I was not an IIT I was not an IIM so there’s no scope, plus I
am a human resource guy, people don’t understand Human Resource, they usually
misunderstand. So starting off something on my own was not very clear in my head.
I was in love with his idea of Education and understand that, so STIR
was a safe journey that ways because Sharath was there and he’s a serial
entrepreneur, he’s already done two and I really liked the approach that he was
having. I had no idea I had not met anybody Ashish or what’s happening in
this space, but what he was doing and what he was at least sharing in terms of
on paper was looking very interesting. So I thought that would be an easy way
to go in. TeacherApp again was… I never thought that I want to kind of do
something of my own. So I said okay my time at STIR has reached a point where I need
to explore further, and that’s where the conversation started. It was sort of Ashish
who just nudge me into that. So I was like no, I want to work in a setup
where I go and solve a problem rather than leading it. But starting…
nothing changes in terms of you have a problem you have a fair idea about the
crosstrack the rest is you have to still apply, go excite people to join you, build
a momentum to kind of move things from paper to action and then keep building
the Minimum Viable Product. So those things don’t change whether you’re doing
it for say an ICICI Bank or Nomura or for that matter STIR or a TeacherApp.
It’s just that there is an added pressure of, you know it’s seeing the
future and that’s on you it’s not someone else doing it, so that added
pressure is there. I’m still new to it let’s see how it goes but so far it’s
been interesting. So Vinod you know like you mentioned about getting people excited
to join the team. What are your top two strategies on you know, enlisting the
Hanumans? As Ram, like how do you get people excited to do
something that is your vision and how do you sort of recruit these people and
continue to deliver and stay at the TeacherApp? That’s a tough one right in terms
of given this space that we are in, attracting talent and keeping them is
always difficult. And we are aware that even though there is a lot of
awareness in terms of education as an idea and the problem, there is no pool
where you can readily rely and go and say okay these guys understand you know the
Rotax of what works and how it works. So I usually do two things really well. I
think I’m very good at communicating the idea. So that’s very critical in
terms of to build a good story about what you really want to do and be
honest about it. So especially my first five or six
people that I really really rely on, I actually hunt them. So some of
my recruiting skills really come handy where I kind of you know earmark them, and
then it’s all about a lot of coffees with them to really tell them the
stories. I don’t ask them to join or join the bandwagon straight away. I give them
a lot of time to figure out what they really want to do. So it’s a
time-consuming activity it’s not a normal recruiting…You can’t attract
your core co-founders like that. And once that is clear and there is excitement
and I also kind of start believing that they’re excited then it’s all about
figuring out each of their situation and making it work for them. And there
is no strategy to it it keeps changing. Each individual is different, their needs
are different, they’re coming from different and they’re also going to a
different place, so how do you kind of carve out that little journey where they
add value and you add value to them is an exploration I try to do honestly and
that usually works. And this is one element that has to be baked in when
you’re designing the solution. I’m not a person who can run an organization of
100 people, because I will not have the energy to kind of go to that level. So I
will not design a solution which will require 100 people organization or I’ll
leave. I will do something else and let someone else do it.
I’m very clear about it. So I am a person who can really manage an
organization which is 20-25 people, because then
I can be invested in people and kind of create and create that kind of
opportunity for people at the same time be true to the overall vision because
that’s ultimate in what we’re doing. There is a war out there, kids are not
learning, there is a situation so whatever we’re building has to solve
that and idea’s not just to enthrall 20 people and have a good time
ultimately that means to align so how do you marry the two is very critical. So in
my head as a leader I’m very clear that that’s my limitation. I can’t build an
organization or sustain an organization which is 100 people and hence my designs
will have those limitations. I find that very interesting because a lot of time
we design organizations thinking about the objective we want to achieve, you
know the problem that we want to solve, without having so much of a
personal operating style you know baked into the plan, saying that you know I may
not sort of enjoy fundraising, or I may not enjoy the marketing side of things.
So what you are describing is something that’s very unique that I haven’t heard
before. Yeah and that’s also a lot of learning especially when you take a
product on the ground that’s something that I’ve learned and I’ve been very
fortunate to see that so STIR obviously was a program but we were also
running STIR very interestingly by embedding into different programs. So
those three years, the first three years in the development sector,
I really saw a lot of programs very closely there’s Educate Girls, Room to
Read, AIF, Pratham to name a few, where we were trying to embed STIR and I
got a good sense of what’s happening in each of these program both from a design
point of view and operationally what’s happening on the ground.
So, you actually visited these organizations where they were working,
you chatted with those people you understood what the challenges were,
what’s relatively exciting, and you almost did like a competitive analysis
of sorts to get yourself smart and that helped you decide what type of an
organization you want to build. So two phenomenons came out very clearly to me
that there is always a design which is always a challenge because we know
that the landscape and the terrain is so complicated, whatever lens you pick
whether the student lens, or a you know remedial lens, or a teacher lens, or a school
principal lens, or a system lens, there is no clear answer there. So design is a
challenge. But when this design gets into operationalization, all kinds of things
happen. So partnerships becomes permissions, on the ground what is
happening hiring a talent which will work in that remote area, and the design
iteration, so the thing that I noticed very very blatantly in all of these
programs was your operationalization starts impacting design. And a lot of
time leaders miss that, or in general core teams miss that because you’ll be
wearing two different hats. Operationalizing a program in Indian
education, suddenly starts you know giving unreasonable demand to design and
design compromises start happening and you don’t realize. So that was very clear
in my head, that when you’re designing keep ops in mind, who’s delivering? Who
can deliver? Can you hire that kind of talent? But it’s hard Vinod, you have
funders who are asking you different strategies on ops, you have governments
that sort of pressurizing you to scale, you have your internal design team that
sort of you know raising a voice, like how do you how do you stay true to the
design of the program and not let these outside forces influence? It’s hard. You
cannot do that. That’s the idea, you need to have the balance and be very clear
that it’s the design which is leading to operation not the operation which is
leading to design. Because if you’re in the second territory, then you are in a risky
position. You do not realize soon you will spend a lot of time and energy without
having any impact. Vinod, like partnerships are so
difficult right and I mean we went to a retreat where you know it was all about
why is there no collaboration in the education sector? Since that day in Goa,
like you have obviously led the talk on this right. You have done the
partnerships while you were at STIR, you’re now doing the partnerships while
you’re at TheTeacherApp. So what excites you about collaborations and
partnerships? I know for sure that we are at a stage where the problem of
education needs to be looked at from a scale angle, and I have met a lot of
people, so I’ve tried to understand what has happened in the space in say 80’s
where the challenge is very different in 80’s to even prove that
you know, children from this kind of background can actually learn. So it’s
not something that only privileged children should get. And that’s what a
swell organisation like the Diganta, Bodh, Eklavya proved so hard. And that
proving could be done at a small scale and that’s why we Hoshangabad, Bodh
working in Rajasthan or Rishi Valley’s work and things like that
and that led to policy change and things like that happened. But today where
we are, all solution needs to be done at scale. So scale is very critical. How do
we, so in our case, how do we create a system where we can continuously train
90 lakh teachers, and this 90 Lakh will become you know easily like a 2 crore
situation in next 10 years. Now to solve this kind of a problem can’t be done by
one organization, that’s one. Two, there is no silver bullet, there is no one answer.
So we need to find that answer. So it’s pretty evident that if many people are
trying to find an answer, you will possibly reach somewhere. So those
principles are very evident and I’m a big believer in synergies, I’m a big
believer in utilizing each other’s knowledge. Plus in general also when you
work in big organizations where I have been very privileged to work with, you
understand what collaboration can enable. Then different teams different organizations
come together. So you’ll experience the benefit of collaboration.
So you talked about like how you know the size of the problem is so large, we
have 90 lakh teachers that’s going to expand to 2 crores, at that scale it’s
difficult for any one organization to solve this problem and that’s the reason
why you think it’s almost, you know like it’s trivial, I mean the idea to do
partnerships is almost necessary to do this. So yeah that’s been the experience
too right when you collaborate things happen and plus we are in a situation
where there is no clear answer, but at the same time we know how mythical is
collaboration. So it also has to bake into the design of it. When you’re
designing a solution, are you keeping in mind that this solution has to fit into
existing systems? So when we design, when we decide on technology, what kind
of platforms, we are totally aware that platform building is an exercise that
will constantly happen. So every state will have their own platform. So how do
you design in such a way that your solution fits into an existing system.
Similarly when we take decisions on content formats, we also keep in mind
that we are not the only people who want to create this kind of content, because
we know that the ecosystem exists. I’ll give you an example here. For example, we
know what we’re trying to do is how do you communicate a progressive idea or
say on math teaching to a teacher on a phone so that’s readily available to her
anytime anywhere. Now this is an exercise that I believe that lakhs and lakhs of
people should do parallely. So that a lot of people will get it right and good
content will go to teacher and then she will figure out how to navigate the best
one and the bubbling up and all happen. But for that to happen, somebody and a
lot of people have to create content. So when I’m making technology choices in
terms of what kind of an authoring tool, what kind of processes takes to convert
an idea from a mind of an author, an expert, to a paper to a storyboard to a
final output, we need to end keep in mind that it’s not the only person who
is in TeacherApp who’s doing it. There could be a person who’s sitting in Eklavya
who could do it because he is sitting on great amount of content and knowledge
about how the things work for a teacher. There could be somebody who’s sitting in
an SCERT who could do it. There could be somebody who is a freelance
educationalist who could do it. Now that’s what it is required when I say
that design for collaboration, is when you’re creating or making any of these
choices, keep in mind that can this be done by anyone else who do not have
access to TeacherApp. Can that be coded? Now these are things that will enable
collaboration. So collaboration that way is a myth because a lot of people assume
it should happen. And that’s been our experience that we keep meeting in these
places where we know that it is no brainer, but what’s that first step, what’s that
second step, which will create that what I call a win-win.
Where it’s easy for the other person to try it out. So when I go and approach a
dream team organization, that’s the design that we go in say that okay, what
are the enablers to collaboration? So I know that a lot of these organization
wants to digitize, but they think it’s too complicated a problem, it’s too
expensive a problem, and hence they are sitting on the fence. So we go and say
that okay fine let’s underwrite your learning. So we will take care of your
learning, we will give you exposure in terms of what we have done, there is no
secret sauce and we know that you perhaps can do a better job than us. Why
don’t you just join and learn by creating six seven courses? We will fund
it, or we’ll convince our funders to fund it, so that your learning is free now
that enables them to at least try this and a lot of time we seek collaboration
but you don’t design for it. So this is an example, where we went and said ok
this is understandable barrier let’s break that, and bake in that in our funding
pipeline itself. So go convince your funders that if collaboration needs to
happen we need to kind of do this. So that’s something that I’m very careful
about when you’re designing the solution how does it fit into existing systems.
That’s what I’ve learned and how do you design for collaborations it will not
happen otherwise. Because we all are working with limited resources but it’s
needed because none of us are working with secret sauce here. Especially I
don’t look at this… My end goal for TeacherApp is not to be an independent
organization with self sustainability and all that. My success would be if we
can create a system where great content for teachers is created, whether it’s
created by TeacherApp or whoever it is, because that’s what we are starting. So
what we’re learning and coding should be sustained by
ecosystem. That’s when real change will happen. Otherwise yeah will create a
great organization, but beyond a point will not change things. You know speaking
of great content, there is so much content out there already right there
are billions of videos on YouTube, there are people who are creating content all
around the world, there is already all this content out there, why not re-use it?
Like why reinvent the wheel? Why start from scratch? I get that a lot so I’ll
give a very long answer to that because that’s a rhetoric that I want to really
build in the ecosystem. See when we talk about teachers per se, so let’s put two three filters
and you will see that there is no content out there. The moment you put the first filter-
‘teachers.’ There is very little content out there because most content usually in the
digital world is for students and there’s a significant difference
here because students require concepts. Teachers require much more than concepts.
They require in terms of how does that concept really work, what does research
in learning inform about that concept. So if you have to teach science, there is a
pedagogy of science which needs to be understood and where are the myths
building, where are the typical problems, the errors that students make. Now such
content doesn’t exist. It exists but usually behind you know, paywalls and
things like that doesn’t exist freely. The moment you put a filter of language,
put the teacher filter, now put Hindi filter. There is nothing available for
teachers. So all that myth that a lot of content available on YouTube and all,
just goes for a toss straightaway the moment you put these two filters. There’s
very little content available on concepts in general. Yes, they exist but
not digitally. So I call them locked content. So this content exists but
they’re locked. So, either they’re locked in research papers which are lying in
English somewhere in which are PDFs which our teachers don’t read and
consume because they’re English research papers. They’re locked in organisations and
individuals. So, there are some 5,000- 6,000 individuals in India who have gone
through this kind of pedigree of progressive learning. These are people
who have come up from come out of the Delhi University B.Ed program, or the
M.A. TISS program, or now what APU is giving or these are people who have worked in
progressive systems like Rishi Valley, Krishnamurtys, Mirambikas. So,
there are 5000 – 6000 people who are dealing with these ideas but again, physically.
Either they’re doing workshops, or they are in organisations which are doing
some work, or this kind of content is available in
organizations who are working at a reasonable scale. Bodh, Eklavya, Honibabas of the world, tons of experience within these organizations, but they are
all small scale, like in a block, in a state max. So content exists, but not
digitally. So that’s one answer. Two, again we kind of take a lot of inspiration
from this book called ‘The Long Tail.’ Now the book kind of talks about the
phenomenon that there is infinite demand for anything which is digitally
available. So it talks about 98% rule. So if you look at YouTube,
you look at iTunes, if you look at Amazon Kindle, out of the millions of books and
the songs and the videos out there, the the 98% rule says that 98% of them is at
least bought or consumed once in a quarter. So that shows there’s infinite
demand. So the book says as long as you democratize content creation, and you
break barriers between the users, this long tail will show up. So that’s one
confidence. So you need to create more and more content so that long tail
happens and if we know that long tail happens that means there is significant
behavior change in the 90 lakh teachers. But at the other side we
also know that this is…we don’t have luxury of time to build this behavior. So
if you look at Facebook, Instagram, Snapchats of the world, they have created
a new behavior which didn’t exist. Sometimes I also feel that’s the
behavior we don’t need, but they created that behavior, but the riding principle
was that let’s create okay content, crowdsource content to build that
behavior, and then now build good content based on analytics. We can’t afford that
journey. We need high quality content to start that behavior change, which leads
to further high quality content and then crowdsourcing happening. So we believe in
these two things very dearly. With this focus on quality, is it also playing
out in terms of how many teachers finish your course, or how many of them come
back? I mean approximately what is the consumption numbers on this? Two
different problems in terms of the puzzle. So one is obviously how do you
create more and more and unlock existing content and make it available for
teacher in a format which is easy, simple, downloadable offline…characteristics.
Other is to kind of even learn the pattern in which this
consumption happens. There again, we are looking at multiple use cases, one
classic use case is the Netflix binging kind of a thing where a teacher is there,
has time, this thing is available, he’s constantly learning. We are seeing all
kinds of patterns, in terms of lot of people are completing content. So we have
around 40-45% conversion rate. So if somebody starts the course 40-45%
of them are actually completing it. We have also changed the MOOC format
drastically. For example, couple of characteristics. Typical MOOCs are
usually long, two three weeks, and they’re synchronous. So it forces the entire
group to start together, and end together and there’s a certification hanging at
the end. We have broken that by a paradigm. We are saying that we will
create courses which are short and they’re asynchronous. It doesn’t require
you to start on a day or end on a day, you can do any anytime. So that kind of
makes it a little more easier. So you can’t directly compare. But MOOCs
typically have 3-4%. We are seeing 45% which is pretty
good. Let’s see, once we scale we can kind of do that. We are on a
reasonable scale right now. Around 1 lakh 20 thousand users who are already there on
the app, which is also good growth, and a lot of organic signs are there. For
example, we have roughly around 50 hours of content. So some 20 courses, some 30
podcasts, and some 30 toolkit videos Everything…So the longtail is visible so
there is not a single item that has not been viewed. That’s good. In the last…
That’s good validation for the team no, what they created actually got used and
you can see that effect immediately. Correct. So people are touching it, people are
commenting, people are writing on it, people are sharing it. It gets a little
depressing when you say ‘kitna dekha’, right? So then game changes. So that’s where
the learning is. How do…now I am able to acquire users. Because organically, there
is demand, and to your question, a lot of people are coming back because they are
experiencing that everything there is of certain quality. Right. Or they are seeing
that this is useful for me, and this is what probably I want. And we hear that a
lot when we interview teachers. So Vinod, you know, I’ve met you and Sarita at
various conferences and even after you guys have reached four states, 1,20,000
teachers, I always find this amazing humility that just comes
across and I know it’s very real because I’ve seen it in multiple occasions and
both of you are so down to earth. Where are these values coming from? Like after
achieving so much why are you guys still so rooted? Because you think that we’ve
achieve so much we’ve not achieved anything not even scratched the surface. So our
education system is also almost at that precarious situation where there is a
massive problem. A lot of people have solutions but nobody knows in terms of
what’s going to be the outcome of this war, right? So there is no choice but to
have humility. But I am a great fan of Sarita, and people
like her who are in the ecosystem. I think that sense of tentativeness is a
sign of quality for me. So when I’m talking to…that will come out. If you
talk to a progressive academician, you will always see that tentativeness and
that’s the core of education is what I have learned. I’m not an academician
myself but it’s a tentative process. Teaching 30 children in a classroom, it’s not a linear process, it’s a complicated process, and that level of
tentativeness is very critical for an academician, for a teacher to understand.
I think that’s where probably a lot of Sarita’s tentativeness and humility
comes from because she’s been a teacher. A lot of my team members have been
teachers and a lot of people that we work on the content side are phenomenal
teachers themselves. I mean that’s where the energy comes in, right? The ecosystem.
And we keep drawing a lot of energy from each other. The team is extremely
passionate, so we are able to get a lot of people coming in to do this, who
believe in this, that keeps going and there it’s always…everyday there is
hope. So I’ve never had a day where I’m on the field, go to a government
office where you’ll see a lot of depressing people, but there will be one
spark there who will want to change. In the school also, you’ll find that one
teacher. So for example, I have this guy called Raghuvansh ji, who sees everything
that goes on the app. Now he’s a super user for me even if
your notification doesn’t go, he’s seen it and he’ll comment on it. So that gives
you energy, because there is somebody who’s watching it and that’s what you
need every day to kind of validate. Even if one person is watching, it’s great.
And there are around four or five thousand of such people who are super active right now,
and there is no push-pull required. They’re using it because it’s there.
Great Vinod, it’s so inspiring to sort of hear all the different you know
efforts you have put in along with the team. I love the insights, on you know, how at
the design stage itself, you have to make the operational decisions, how at the
design stage you think about how partnerships would come, you know how
sort of the attention to quality of content is sort of still a big gap-
unlike what we generally think about content. I love the humility as always a huge fan
of the way you guys operate, and I’m looking forward to solving you know,
interesting and important problems together, in this sector. And
congratulations to you, to kind of start this. It’ll be great to see. You should do it
longitudinally, let’s keep doing these interviews and for like four years
and then see in terms of things changing, it’ll be great. Well the problem is gotta
be there and we are going to be there, so let’s see how it goes. Great, great
I’ll note that. Awesome. Thanks Pranav- Thank you [Music]

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